Women in religion

[Harman]

How many religions have this much respect for women? Equality is what makes this a religion worthy of respect..

"From woman, man is born; within woman,
man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.
Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.
When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.
So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.
From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all. "
— Guru Nanak, Raag Aasaa Mehal 1, Page 473

also check out
www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Sikh_Women
its a good read - alot of info i didnt know but keep in mind its wikipedia so may not be 100% accurate..

I also was surprised to see some takes on women by hinduism and christianity which was pretty negative.. but i guess it can be argued that culturally, our's has been negative to the role of women as well despite what our religion says..

I dunno, what are your thoughts culturally or religiously, through personal experience, or through any other experience on the role women play in our society/culture/religion and how we can or why we should change/not change..

[singh]

Harman Paji i am proud of you to take this topic on.

We have a great resources our Guru Granth Sahib Jee, but sadly we tend to look at the other way and not look for true guidence. We have this tendency to follow other people and question our faith. Our society has been so closely linked to the culture aspect of material things and etc. That we only turn to religion when we require something or are walking into an exam. Sikhi holds an great importance for women yet the state of Punjab with largest Sikh population has the largest Fetocide occuring. Our parents have the great responseability to teach us about our religion. I think the role of women can be changed but we have to start with ourselves and start respecting the women around us. We all respect our moms but do we ever just sit with her and thank her for the food she makes us, for all the caring and love she provides when we were young, for all the time she provide that bandaid for our mistakes. Do we spare five minutes of our time and just thank her and ask her how her day was? well if you do i am proud of you guys but if you dont than theres your starting point. Finally in our religion women have earned the same right as men to do seva at Darbar Sahib (Golden temple). It has been only since few decades that women were allowed to be the punj payar (the five beloved ones: who give amrit). And i wanna mention this one last point for the women out there, Guru Gobind Singh Ji's personal body guard was Mai Bhago jee.

Paramjit Singh

[Pally]

Hello everyone, (LONG POST!)

I'm also glad this topic was posted for discussion, because I have a lot to say about it! And, I am actually very fascinated with how other religions view women.

I took a religious studies class a while back, and also have a group of friends who follow other faiths. I even wrote a paper on this 2 semesters or so ago, so I’ve got tons of background information (I can send it out if you want to read it).

I’ve only gotten to fully understand Islam so far (and Sikhi of course), and am working on Christianity. So, bear with me.

Islam: Women are not allowed to pray before a man, and in some mosques, they are not even allowed to be in the same room. Women with are pregnant or menstruating are not allowed to participate in the Ramadhaan fasts, nor are they allowed to pray during that time (they are seen as “impure”). The Burkha is seen as an act of purity since women are a “cherished” species and should not be looked upon in a negative manner (thus, protected from such attention by wearing the Burkha). Women are seen as “property”, first of their fathers and then their husbands. Men stand on a higher platform in the Muslim faith, while women are second citizens.

Now, how much of that is true? Everything I have written above is misconstrued truth and just that. Our perception of this beautiful religion has been twisted and controlled by media bias’ and confused with cultural ideas.

No where in the Holy Quran is it written that a woman cannot pray and there are no limitations of where and when they can pray. The fact that women cannot pray before a man is just a disgusting cultural norm, as some individuals’ state that for a women to pray in front of a man causes the male mind to lose focus of their prayers. In other words, if a female prays in front of a man, he is going to get distracted and, thus, women should always pray behind the men. This is FALSE! It was created by the Muslim culture and the Holy Quran states nothing of this.

Pregnant and menstruating women cannot fast for HEALTH reasons, not because they are “impure”. A woman who bears a child cannot risk the health of that child by fasting. Although some women have done it, the infant usually comes out with some health problems. Same goes for menstruating women. The Holy Quran actually states that these are the only reasons why women should not fast or pray.

The Burkha is not an act of male dominance. It is seen in the same pure mindset as with Sikhs and their Dastaars. The act of covering oneself is a sign of surrendering themselves for Allah. It is the same as anyone wearing a cross or wearing a Dastaar, a sign of faith. Men must also cover their heads and that is required in Islam. Women, however, are only required to cover their heads with a Hijab and those who wear the Burkha should do if THEY wish. And of course, those who see individuals wearing these items should look at them with respect and not lust. I believe that goes for all religions.

The whole “women are property” thing is again a cultural thing. The same can be seen in the Punjabi culture, actually all cultures have a somewhat similar idea. It’s just a long-stemming historical idea from when women had no rights and the males dominated. Slowly, this whole idea should diminish with the world becoming more equal gender-wise.

Women and men are seen as completely equal in the Holy Quran. No one should be above another, nor should any religion be superior. The Holy Quran emphasizes equality. In fact, the Holy Quran does not state “Man should do this” but instead says “men and women should”.

So, my take on the female role in religion? Equal to that of males. The only inequalities that arise are strictly cultural. All religions are pure if we study them in the purest form. Forget reading about other people’s interpretations of the writings and reading others opinions about the religion. If you want the truth about how a particular faith views women, men or children, go to the source. Talk to the high priests or teachers, not just any Joe from off the street.

For any mistakes I have made, please forgive me. I tried my best to state my thoughts on the Islamic faith as pure as possible. If I have added my own bias to interpretations, please forgive me and let me know so I can learn.

Pally

[Inder]

The cultural influences on religions is a real poison. There are so many people in the world that have been influenced by culture that it has screwed up their train of thought. The question is when does this start? I think it starts when we are young children and pick up things from our parents. When we are little, we learn so much from our parents, there are times when parents don't even know that their children are learning from their small trival actions and speech.

We as a society (those who believe and practice Sikhi) say that women and men are on the same level. We say that there is no differences between the two genders when it comes to practices and way of living. However when we go to a gurdwara in the lower mainland we majority of the time see men sevadars as head granthi's (sp) and pardhaan's (sp). We go to the gurdwara's and we don't see women doing the ardaas or doing the kirtan as much as the men. Is it cause there aren't enough women in the Sikhi panth? or is it cause we in some subconscious way we treat women below us?

I normally only go to Singh Sabha Darbar and Dashmash Darbar and at these two gurdwaras in particular, rarely do I see a Singhnee doing Ardaas or other ceremonial items. I would love to see women doing more things like this.

Pally has done a great job discussing women and Islam.
What you guys think about this?

[ravi]

I agree with everything Pally has said. Most people fail to distinguish between religion and culture. This is especially hard to see as an "outsider" looking in. When people observe the actions of a "religious" man/woman, they assume that his/her actions are representative of their religion's teachings and don't account for the cultural influences.

A couple of months ago, I was trying to explain to a Catholic friend of mine how Sikhi views women s equals to men. He couldn't stop laughing for a good 10 minutes. He couldn't wrap his head around that concept once he took into consideration how the Punjabi culture treats women. He argued, in every aspect of life, women have been seens as second-class citizens in comparison to men. The Punjabi people are full of double standards - men can do certain things and be congratulated while when women do the same, they are frowned upon.

And so, it is very important to diffentiate what is a part of a culture and what is taught in religion. I find it very hard to have a conversation about the Sikhi religion with others who don't understand the difference.

[sharon.k™]

pally said:

The Burkha is not an act of male dominance. It is seen in the same pure mindset as with Sikhs and their Dastaars. The act of covering oneself is a sign of surrendering themselves for Allah. It is the same as anyone wearing a cross or wearing a Dastaar, a sign of faith. Men must also cover their heads and that is required in Islam. Women, however, are only required to cover their heads with a Hijab and those who wear the Burkha should do if THEY wish. And of course, those who see individuals wearing these items should look at them with respect and not lust. I believe that goes for all religions.

The whole “women are property” thing is again a cultural thing. The same can be seen in the Punjabi culture, actually all cultures have a somewhat similar idea. It’s just a long-stemming historical idea from when women had no rights and the males dominated. Slowly, this whole idea should diminish with the world becoming more equal gender-wise.

Women and men are seen as completely equal in the Holy Quran. No one should be above another, nor should any religion be superior. The Holy Quran emphasizes equality. In fact, the Holy Quran does not state “Man should do this” but instead says “men and women should”.

Pally

Thanks Pally, that was an awesome job. You clarified many misconceptions about the Islamic religion.

The one thing that bothers me the most about women in religions (particularly the Sikh religion) is the point ravi brought up at the end of his post "it is very important to diffentiate what is a part of a culture and what is taught in religion. I find it very hard to have a conversation about the Sikhi religion with others who don't understand the difference."

The Punjabi culture is very different from the Sikh religion. They do not go hand in hand. I'm not saying the Punjabi culture or its traditions are bad, but they should not be compared with those of the Sikh religion. The saddest part is not that you can't explain it to other people from various religions, it's when people in your own culture (Punjabi) or from your own religion (Sikh)don't understand or refuse to understand that difference.

[imsunny]

I will make this short and sweet

Women in the Sikh religion are supposed to be treated equally or even somewhat better than men...but then culturally its the complete opposite...they are opressed and married off to some guy because it is their duty to do so...it may be changing now but the way I see it, there is really no point in trying to compare how women should be treated according to Sikhi and how they actually are

[Pally]

imsunny said:

I will make this short and sweet

Women in the Sikh religion are supposed to be treated equally or even somewhat better than men...but then culturally its the complete opposite...they are opressed and married off to some guy because it is their duty to do so...it may be changing now but the way I see it, there is really no point in trying to compare how women should be treated according to Sikhi and how they actually are

Why not? Does it not bring awareness to those who treat women culturally-thinking?

If a Gursikh comes up to you and says "you shouldn't be doing that because Sikhi says your supposed to do this instead", are you not going to rethink your actions because you want to be closer to God? Yes, our elders are somewhat stubborn and set in their ways, but as the next generation, should we not try and change the traditional thinking? And move out of this Kalyog that plagues our community?

Our elders may treat women wrong because of their culturally-infused mind set, but as the youth, who says we have any reason to do the same? We are generally the more educated regarding the world issues and societal standards, so why promote something we know is wrong? Why not go against the grain and say "No, I'm not going to do that because Sikhi guides my life". I know I am more likely to think religiously than my parents and relatives.

Pally

[amarjeet]

I agree with Pally. I can’t even count the numerous times I’ve heard that a woman shouldn’t do something because it’s not in our culture, whereas a man is allowed. I’m not saying that every elder has this opinion, but it seems that the majority does. Plus, it seems that many younger people are “agreeing” with the cultural ideas.

I think that we do need to move away from the cultural-thinking that we have been taught and move back towards Sikhi. As youth we have the opportunity to break the cycle, and avoid the cultural misperceptions.

Finally, does anyone know how people went from Sikhi’s equality of women to the now common cultural inequality of women?

[amanb]

Life for women in less developed countries has always been a difficult task. There is a higher chance for them to be discriminated against, and treated inequally. I feel that these biases and cultural values have travelled with our families to Canada, to America, or wherever else it may be and never really left them. Well, if you think about it, if a certain ideal has been engraved into your mindset since you were young, it is not going to easily disappear. So, unfortunetly we can't blame a single group of people. Generations and generations of cultural influence has penetrated into the mind's of thousands of people and only time stands a chance in wavering this perception.

However, we as the next generation have to pick up and try to rebuild a new set of cultural values, without offending our elders. We have to defy what has been preset as the cultural norms so that women can be treated equally once again. Our religion promotes equality between women, and our elders respect religion. So why not use that as the liason between the two - and from there work our way up.

Our kirtan yesterday was pretty successful in my opinion, and if we can get the public's eye through events such as these, it may be a benefit to bringing up such ideas as this. I'm not saying let's use kirtan's and events like that as marketing techniques, far from that, but what I am saying is, if we can get out there, and spread a positive message, and maybe change what people think women's role in our culture is, that would be a good thing right?

I know I may seem like a rambled a lot about a whole lotta stuff, but this issue does hit home. Hopefully someone understands what I mean

[imsunny]

A funny quote came to me after reading your replies...so here it goes

"Women who seek equality lack ambition"

Ok now for seriousness...

Why not? Does it not bring awareness to those who treat women culturally-thinking?...Our elders may treat women wrong because of their culturally-infused mind set, but as the youth, who says we have any reason to do the same? We are generally the more educated regarding the world issues and societal standards, so why promote something we know is wrong? Why not go against the grain and say "No, I'm not going to do that because Sikhi guides my life". I know I am more likely to think religiously than my parents and relatives.
Pally

Ok so I see you want to compare the two...here are my reasons for saying it is pointless to do so:
1. Like you said the mindset of our "elders"...but you left out youth and 2. Because culture and religion are two completely different entities.
And as for raising awareness, sure it does but don't you think there is a reason women are treated the way they are? Its because they let themselves be treated as lesser beings and those that don't well i'm sure you've heard of them, they are reffered to as "b$#@*es"

[Pally]

Right Imsunny, I agree that some women DO let themselves be treated the way the are. But how many of them, especially those from India, know of alternatives? They've seen their grandmothers, mothers and sisters treated this way (not all but most of the time), so they such retreat into this way of life. Its a matter of conditioning. If you are exposed to a certain way of thought and lifestyle at a young age, those experiences impact your future. If you are told repeatedly that you are a female and you are below me, eventually you will start to believe it because that is ALL you know.

My point was that it is up to us, the youth, to change this. To make an awareness. To show women what our Great Guru's have said about equality. If the older generations see us as being the key to pushing away from the Kalyog, then why not take advantage of the power they have given us and educate them on a more religious path? It is our own initiative as to what we do with our lives. We are all given a mission to achieve in our lives from birth, and I am positive that the youth has been giveen something more than just to "recede into the cultural lifestyle" that has become the norm.

Pally
ps. No hardfeelings. I love to discuss and debate

[sharon.k™]

imsunny said:

A funny quote came to me after reading your replies...so here it goes

"Women who seek equality lack ambition"

that's not funny.
At all.

[amanb]

I agree with Pally and Sharon, Sunny that was NOT funny.

[imsunny]

I thought it was funny

Pally as for what you said about conditioning and not knowing the alternatives. The conditioning is related to the cultural aspect of women in our society and what you are proposing...ie. educating them of the alternatives...is the religious aspect.

That in itself is a problem, and have you ever considered they may not wish to learn the alternatives. I am not saying this because I believe they don't, i'm saying this because if you have been brought up believing something all your life and everyone in your village or cultural group beilieves it, it is next to impossible for any amount of evidence/argument (no matter how convincing) to change your mind.