Saints - do they exist?

[Mez]

Hey guys,
sorry I don't think I got my point across really clearly...I realize when Gursikhs bow to one another when they meet that is out of respect but that is not what my point was in regards to. When I said self proclaimed saints, I actually had one particular person in mind. I don't know how many of you heard about Narinder Grewal, but it was a big thing back about 3.5 years ago here in Toronto. Here's the link for those of you who are interested in this.

www.sikhsentinel.com/sikhsentinel0306/narindergrewal.htm

[Inder]

this guy claimed to be the next guru. He got his from other Gursikhs

[imsunny]

vic said:

Nope no saints exist...and if they do or people believe they do...

I'm not sure if you're saying that the possibility of Saints existing is not true or if you're saying that there are no "true saints" in existence. I disagree with the first statement but can't really argue too much with the second; people are always looking for shortcuts.

I thought what I said was clear...

[vic]

Sunny,

I understand that you have your belief that no saints exist. However, gurbani clearly acknowledges the fact that there are saints in our world and we should respect them. So, I think you should try and look into Sukhmani Sahib or even read the last few pauris of Kirtan Sohila and see for yourself. Don't be discouraged by some of the problems our community has had int he past.

Saints do exist; gurbani tells us so. The question is, are there any true/real saints in this world that everyone would accept.

[nuyourk]

I think when gurbani says there are saints in the world it means that there are saintly people in the world. For example, baba buddha ji was a saintly human being. However he was never called a sant or brahmgiani until, actually, the other day when I was in the Gurdwara and someone said that. Throughout history people have always been called by the title "bhai" or "baba" (ex. bhai gurdas ji, baba Buddha Ji, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, Bhai Nand Lal) The words "sant" or "Brahmgiani" weren't actually used as titles but as an explanation for a way of being.

[Mez]

The differentiation between a Baba/Bhai and a Sant I think would be that Baba Jis are more the elderly, the wise so to speak, whereas the Sant, is just one who is attached to God, and spreading the name of God and the teachings of the Guru Jis around...Thats the way I see it, because Sants can be young, such as Sant Ranjit Singh (Dhudria wale)?? I don't know how to spell it, but he is the young Sant from India who was here in Canada recently. However, I have never seen a young person be called a Baba/Bhai Ji.

[sharon.k™]

speaking of the Dudria Valeh (sorry if I misspelled his name)... when I first saw him with my mom at Dasmesh Darbar, I was literally blown away... he was amazing... his kirtan style, his speaking style... everything was just like WOW! He sure did "recharge my Sikhi battery."

But after watching that well-known "birthday celebration" video, I was deeply saddened. It was just so depressing to see such a wonderful individual being taken over by such vices... I thought, maybe it's just his sangat... sometimes bad ppl come in and influence you to do the wrong thing. I was so angered to see siyania bibiya (old ladies) bow down to him... poor ppl, who barely made enough for themselves and their families bringing him money... all of it made me sick. I just couldn't understand why this had happened... he was so great, such an influential individual... and it all went wrong.

Anywhoo... I asked around as to what happened to him, and apparently he asked for forgiveness by the Akal Takhat and said he would never do such a thing ever again.

Whenever I get around to bashing supposed "sants" who make ppl bow down to them, my mom always says to me... sharon, you shouldn't talk ill of these ppl... they do a lot of paat (prayer) and they are probably 10 times the Sikhs we are, or will ever be. And you know what, she's completely right. I have no right to judge these ppl... esp that young man, Ranjit Singh Dandri Valeh. My cousin told me recently, that he has shkaad amrit (baptised) hundreds and thousands of people... THOUSANDS! No matter what anyone says, that is amazing. Getting others on the path of Sikhi is considered to be the duty of all Sikhs... and what Ranjit Singh has done, is truly awesome. No words - just total awesomeness. He is so young, with so much life ahead of him to keep doing whatever he's doing... the Sikh panth is getting bigger and stronger in size because of people like him. There have been many Sant Ji's who have led ppl to take Amrit, but this young individual's numbers are HUGE!

I understand he made a mistake, but one of Sikhism's teachings is forgiveness. I think everyone has a right to be upset over his actions in that video, but if he was forgiven by the Akaal Takhat, I think it's time we move on too. We all make mistakes and our Guru always forgives us. He made a mistake, which goes to show that ultimately, he is a human being just like us. I'm not saying I'm going to bow down to him, but I do have a lot of respect for him... and it's certainly not my place to speak ill of someone who has done such good for our Khalsa Panth.

[Mez]

I know what birthday celebrations movie you're talking about. It was exploited majorly here by certain people. This time when he was here, he openly told the Sangat like everday that the people that showed those images of him didn't show both sides and only portrayed him in a negative way. He went on so much as to say that those people who were bashing him before to please meet with him for as long as he was here in Toronto for, that he wanted to erase all shadows of doubts that people may have had, and the people who were originally portraying him in a negative fashion never showed up. He said this like everyday too saying that he was not afraid of the truth, etc so he didnt have anything to hide but for whatever reason, the other people didnt show.

I think if he did something wrong, fine we're all humans to begin with, he asked for forgiveness and it was granted to him. We shouldn't just be stuck at the fact that oh he made a mistake one time, because he has done so much more good for the future of Sikhism, and for someone to single handedly convince like thousands of people to follow the Gursikh path, they have my utmost respect right there.

[mannai]

I totally agree with S.Bains that for someone to convince thousands of people to follow the GurSikh path is truly amazing and they have my utmost respect as well.

To convince someone to follow the GurSikh path is not an easy task and I'm sure all of us here would have a very hard time convincing maybe even two people. So someone who can convince thousands of people, that individual obviously has a strong connection to Waheguru.

Everyone has a huge tendency to dwell on individuals' wrongdoings. Sort of like tabloids. Why not try to dwell on the good things and see what that brings you.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!!! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!!

[vic]

The differentiation between a Baba/Bhai and a Sant I think would be that Baba Jis are more the elderly, the wise so to speak, whereas the Sant, is just one who is attached to God, and spreading the name of God and the teachings of the Guru Jis around...

I think Sants and Babas have the same role which is to obviously spread the Guru's teachings. I think you are right, that a sant is someone who has a connection to God (that maybe others have not yet been able to attain). But the problem is distinguishing between a fake sant and a real sant. It's really hard to do. Also, the problem is that we can't just openly say someone isn't a sant because we don't know what spiritual level they are at. If on the otherhand, we can tell by their actions that they're obviously not behaving like a Sant or even a Gursikh then maybe....but too openly say, just based on our own observations and feelings that this person ABSOLUTELY cannot be a sant is not right. I think Gurbani says something like "Sant Dey Nindaya Ne Karnee" ~ which means basically don't talk bad about sants.

speaking of the Dudria Valeh (sorry if I misspelled his name)... when I first saw him with my mom at Dasmesh Darbar, I was literally blown away... he was amazing... his kirtan style, his speaking style... everything was just like WOW! He sure did "recharge my Sikhi battery."

Dhadrian wale really had a big impact on me as well Sharon. For all of those that don't know who Dhadrian Wale is...his name is Ranjit Singh and he's probably 24 years old or somewhere around there who does Kirtan & Katha (not sure what his style of kirtan is called) but he came to Surrey last year and he had a HUGE sangat (1000's of people came out). His style is unique and I think it really appeals to people, that's why he has had so much success. I was pretty shocked after I saw the video because it's hard to listen to someone telling you to do good things in your life and to follow Guru's teachings, when they are not doing so themselves. I really thought he was one of the good ones because he spoke with so much passion, respect and love for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and you could feel it in his voice... But, I am grateful for the fact that he did help to energize my "sikhi battery" as you put it and I still listen to his CD whenever I get the chance because the thigns he was saying are right and I guess he just made a big mistake...I think all of the stuff he has done for the Panth shuold be weighed against it too, we need people like him to save Sikhi in Punjab.

Oh and I also found out that the birthday video which was spread around the internet and on all the desi shows was actually when he was really young and before he became a success around the world (so the people in the video were folks from villages in India..clearly they must have been really undeducated)...I think he also said that he stopped doing all of that stuff in the video because he developed a much better understanding of gurbani later on and he's never done anything since..but I don't know if this is all heresay or fact...maybe S.Bains knows more because Dhadrian Wale comes to Toronto more than here.

[Mez]

The story goes that he didnt tell anyone his birthday, and it was just a normal day for him when he was doing his Katha somewhere in India, I can't remember where, but that one of the people with him, they announced that it was his birthday, this was years before he was famous you're right, and since someone had announced it was his birthday, the Sangat became fussy and refused to leave without being able to adorn him with gifts, etc...He said he didn't want anyone to know it was his birthday, but that of his people just leaked it out and he has not celebrated birthdays after that (in that way).

[nuyourk]

Well I think the problem with people today is just that they want to place too much emphasis on a person. We're constantly waiting for a human being to come to us and show us the way. The problem with placing too much faith in another human being is that human beings make mistatkes and often when a human being makes a mistake the followers get disillusioned. Wouldn't it just be better if we focus on the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I mean I'm completely positive there are great gursikhs all around us but why not focus on the bani that these gursikhs focus on instead of the these human beings themselves?? Take the good things that people tell you and then find your own answers because they're all there in the GURU.