Saints - do they exist?

[vdhillon]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

I've always wanted to have a discussion on how people view Saints in today's world. Through my experiences, I've generally noticed that a person's upbringing has a direct influence on whether they will believe in Saints or dismiss them entirely. For instance, one person's parents may have totally respected Saints and this person also respected saints accordingly in their life. Or, a person's parents may consider saints to be crooks or fakes and this person may have grown up to ignore them or even hate them.

There have a been a lot of fake saints in our community in recent years, eg. Baba in Chicago (can't recall his name), Baba Mann Singh (whom the sangat has tried to excommunicate in recent years) and maybe even some stories that you hear at the gurduwara. I think these people are hurting Sikhism, definetly amongst the youth and pushing people away from the positive things (because naturally, humanity likes to focus on negatives first).

What does everyone else think on this topic? Do you believe in Saints or is it just too hard to distinguish these days?

[Mez]

I think if its a real saint, they wouldn't get the sangat to call them by that name, or wouldn't accept materialistic goods and such. The actual saints see themselves as no different from the sangat who is in the Gurdwara.

[imsunny]

Nope no saints exist...and if they do or people believe they do...

[Pally]

I agree with SBains. My personal view on Saints is the same. True Saints are ones who offer knowledge to everyone and do not with to gain fame through their actions. I've always seen true Saints promoting Sikhi in its purest and do not throw in their own personal views.

I have had a few experiences with different Saints and some of them are disappointing to me. I don't mind when individuals do katha to spread the word of Sikhi in its PUREST form but when they add in their own little ideas and opinions as to how Sikhs should live their lives, it angers me. First of all, no one should ever force people to think their own personal way of life is correct. For example, I was recently in Toronto and a Saint my family visited actually said "don't eat anything but dahlia (I guess desi porridge?)". That appalled me, especially when people in my family started to believe it! Its ok for someone to say "hey I eat this and it helps me with this health problem" but to say that all Sikhs should only eat porridge made from scratch (from grinding the ingredients to preparation) is wrong.

I have a tendancy to talk too much, so I'll stop it here. I personally think true Saints don't force their ideas on others but spread the true Sikhi word without bias. They offer ideas when asked and do not look for fame. For all we know, a True Saint has walked into our lives and inspired Sikhi in our hearts but did not state who they were. I think that's how True Saints are. Messages from Guru Ji in human form, but have no high societal/community title.

Hope that made sense. Please forgive me for any mistakes or if I said anything that caused offense.

Pally

[vic]

I agree with Sbains and Pally on how a true Saint shouldn't get the sangat to refer to him as a saint. But, sometimes it's not the saints choice to be called a saint; sometimes the sangat just starts to call him that. That is usually the case with a lot of people. E.g. Bhai Niranjan Singh who's kirtan is recognized world-wide; everyone began to call him a saint just because he had a gifted voice. He didn't want to be called a saint it was only when he became married and had children did people start listening to him. Maybe the title of saint attracts more attention on CD labels, maybe that's why they called him a saint?

A lot of the so-called saints that do come to Canada actually tell the sangat not to call them a saint and to refer to them as a saint. But there actions obviously imply something else and they act like they're better than everyone else. Pally's experience in Toronto is a clear example of that - a true saint shouldn't force his personal lifestyle choices on anyone else (i.e. what a person should eat).

I've heard the argument that "so what if they are fake saints, at least they are teaching and spreading Sikhi around the world." I agree with that in one sense because I know a lot of people need guidance and direction and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be this guidance but people are always looking for shortcuts. I also disagree in the sense that if the people teaching us aren't following it and acting as role-models, how can we listen to them teach..it's just hypocritical.

Nope no saints exist...and if they do or people believe they do...

I'm not sure if you're saying that the possibility of Saints existing is not true or if you're saying that there are no "true saints" in existence. I disagree with the first statement but can't really argue too much with the second; people are always looking for shortcuts.

[Pally]

vic said:

I. I also disagree in the sense that if the people teaching us aren't following it and acting as role-models, how can we listen to them teach..it's just hypocritical.

I agree with that so much! I don't want to be egotisical, but I do know a lot about Sikhi and I have a deep passion for it. However, people look at me and think that I'm just talking bakwaas since I am not a Sikh or that I don't look like a Sikh. I try my best to live a proper Sikh life but I guess our impression and ideas of what to believe, and not to believe, is tainted by our cultural influences.

I think that who you believe and the words you choose to believe are your own choice. However, no one should follow the wrong advice. True messages of Sikhi are just that, True and I think the younger generation tends to have a stronger understanding of what to believe and not to believe. Or so I hope

Pally

[beantk]

There are saints in this world for sure, however there are very few. Gurbani says that a brahmgiani(knower of the universe) is the only true friend a person can have as a brahmgiani helps one get to Vaheguru. Many people just look at a baba and say hes a saint, you must rememeber that it is us humans who even put this label on the sants in the first place, and then we excpect them to live up to our expectations.

If you look at a baba and compare him to brahmgiani, you will know the difference. A brahmgiani is a blessed human who has already met God in this life. Their dasam dwaar is open. And they do not have any of the 5 evils in them: kaam(lust) krodh(anger) lobh(greed) moh(attatchement) and hunkaar(ego). They devote their whole life to God and live a very very simple lifestyle. There main goal in life is to preach about Vaheguru and help other people get there too.

as for the 'fake sants', it is US humans who put this label on the individual in the first place, this "fake sant" stuff would not happen if we didnt call that person a sant in the first place. We tend to jump to conclusions too quickly by just observing one thing of the person. We should keep opinions to our selves and just observe first. We shoudl read bani, through which we can gain knowledge about what a "sant" is and what kind of life style they live.

[sharon.k™]

this one sant baba guy came to our house a long time ago (don't ask me why the hell he was invited )... anywho, he had like this HUGE crowd of ppl following him around (who came into my house and i was like )... these ppl were his "followers" ... from young kids to old geezers, all looking for "answers" to their problems.

He came to see my mom cuz she was sick... and she sat there with him... he sat on a high chair while everyone else kinda just stood or sat on the floor ( )... i didn't like the whole idea of that jackass being there in the first place so i didn't even go into the room... but apparently, after my mom told her story, he's just like "there's nothing that can be done for you, sorry." WHAT A FLIPPIN JACKASS EH?! He's not god, nor is he even close. How dare he come into my house and tell my mom you're going to die. He obviously had no idea what the heck he was saying cuz with GURU JI'S KIRPA, not his, my mom is still here today. So, wherever that loser is now... i'd like to stick to him... and perhaps kick his ass ... i wanted to on that day, but so many ppl held me back.

The saddest part of this whole thing is that all these innocent people who follow these "sants" around spend their entire lives trying to find "answers"... and then they die unhappy people. And yet, the whole time, they were looking in all the wrong places.

[Harman]

I think that there are people that should be admired and remembered for the difference they made or are making. These are the people that are selflessly living their lives for the benefit of the greater good or to promote sikhi in a healthy way.

So in that respect, yes there are people who should be admired. In the same breath, however, one should never follow anyone to the extent where it becomes 'blind faith'. What I mean by this is where actions are not looked at through the context of sikhism and the social world around us.

Now im not saying i know the most about sikhism but anyone that knows me knows of my deep respect for the religion and the beliefs that it represents. There was a so called 'saint' a while back, the infamous kid who bought the hummer and so and so forth and had a birthday party and was miliking people for everything they have. If anyone has an opportunity, as i did, to see the video of where all these people came to touch his feet, watch it and remember it. That video shows what true 'blind faith' (in a negative context) is. It was truly disguisting and personally if i had the opportunity i would punch that kid in the face.

At that same time when I originally saw this video what shocked me more was when I talked to one individual and he defended the so called 'sant' saying that the things were blown out of proportion. Now, again I dont know the most about sikhism but I am learning, but im pretty sure that giving gold chains and money to anyone who is truly representing sikhism, and 'matha' taking is probably wrong. Furthermore, when a 70 year old biji is touch the feet of some 19-something year old kid something is wrong.

So the moral of this long story is, yes poeple should be admired for their contributions; however don't be blind, deaf or dumb and dont hesitate to question the institution. Dont follow false idols and understand that Sikhism is a journey that one has to follow himself, it is not completed by merely following others. And as a sikh, one should only follow and adhere to one rule when it comes to this type of thing:

"Sab Sikhan ko hukum hai Guru Manyo Granth"

The Guru Granth Sahib is the only true Guru that we must follow..

So thats my take on this topic..

[ravi]

On the whole, I agree with a lot of the posts on this topic.

I believe everyone has great intellectual and spiritual powers, but only a limited number of people are able to tap into their powers. These people that are able to help others on their path to moksha (salvation?), whatever the label assigned to them is, are just like everyone else - people need to understand that. The human mind is capable of so much; everyone is capable of getting in touch with their "inner-spiritual self".

Only when society stops placing "sants" on a pedestal, will they be able to learn from them and vice versa. I believe learning is a life-long process; even "sants" are constantly learning. As mentioned numerous times before, only God should be followed.

People should definitely learn from one another but not idolize another human as god. This creates inequality among the sangat and thus we have all the politcal problems that we see in our communities today.

Feel free to let me know what you think on my ideas..

[gina87]

I believe saints dont really exist. Well till i know that Guru Gobind Singh Ji told us to accept The Guru Granth Sahib as the one we worship.... I have travelled alot to india and i have met alot of people claiming that they are saints and they can cure any thing, and basically they have experienced god. That is a very strong statement to make and people in india mostly go about this because some of them example from villages arent really highly educated. They believe what they are told.
I really cant remember the name of one but i remember going with my grandmother to one of his sangat talks. After being there for a while i realized he wanted everyone there to see the world from his point of view. He was basically telling them what is right and what is wrong and what you should do and what not.
On the contrary, i have seen people who have actually been studying the guru granth sahib and they actually live by the rules stated in the holy book. They share their learnings and experiences with everyone.
I guess some become saints for "fame." but some actually take it seriously and try to teach people what they have learned and experienced by following the path of sikhism.
Again as some one mentioned, those people dont want to be called saints but they are by the people.
Basically if you call some one a saint you are referring to them as GOD.. which kind of in a sense seems wrong. If he is really a GOD can he tell your future? Take away your suffering? Not really. These days the word Saint is being trashed by many people just to earn money and get fame.

[Mez]

The thing that irritates me the most is when people BOW to these saints (mostly its the self proclaimed saints), especially people who are gursikh. Just thought I would throw that in there.

[Jaspreet]

In my opinion most gursikhs really BOW to respect the other individuals as some BOW when they say Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh just to show respect to the other. It is not their right to judge others and they do not BOW to the saint but symbolically a Sikh who is closer to God then themselves.
Whichever the case everyone including"fake"saints should be given respect as we are not the ones to judge who is a saint or not. That is not up to us to judge.

[mannai]

This is a topic which could go on forever because "for the believers no proof is neccessary, and for the non-believers no proof will ever be enough"

I used to be skeptical as to the existence of saints until I met one such individual. This individual is the purest of purest individuals I will ever meet and have ever met. His knowledge of Gurbani and Sikhi is the knowledge of a true brahm giani of Waheguru, there are no words to explain the experience I had and to explain this individual. When you meet him you can feel the power of his love and connection to Waheguru. A connection which he has established through the constant and non-ending recital of Waheguru's naam.

I know that there are certain people that can be labelled "fake saints" but I'm not here to dwell on that. I believe in saints because these true saints as the one I have met always try to teach you and tell you about the love of Waheguru and naam. This individual is a very humble person and no one can explain him in words. He considers himself a part of the sangat at all times and always states that you (being us) are people who are way above him and that he is just a servant of Waheguru here to help deliver the message. After meeting with him on numerous times my love and understanding of Sikhi has increased exponentially. Again no words can explain my experience because it is what it is.

As I said earlier, for the non-believers no proof will ever be enough.

As it says in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji,

sant sahaa-ee paraym kay ha-o tin kai laagaa paa-ay.
The Saints are the helpers of the Lord's lovers; I fall and touch their feet.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[sharon.k™]

mannai said:

I know that there are certain people that can be labelled "fake saints" but I'm not here to dwell on that. I believe in saints because these true saints as the one I have met always try to teach you and tell you about the love of Waheguru and naam. This individual is a very humble person and no one can explain him in words. He considers himself a part of the sangat at all times and always states that you (being us) are people who are way above him and that he is just a servant of Waheguru here to help deliver the message. After meeting with him on numerous times my love and understanding of Sikhi has increased exponentially. Again no words can explain my experience because it is what it is.

You are very fortunate to have had the opportunity to meet such a wonderful Gursikh. The experience I had with that one individual was a negative one, but that does not mean that I don't believe in such individuals as you described. We need more wonderful Sikhs like him to help guide us in our journey and to remind us always to repeat Guru's naam.